Narrator: Welcome to ENN’s Field Exchange podcast. In this episode, our host Astrid Klomp speaks with Marie McGrath, outgoing Technical Director at ENN, reminiscing and reflecting on 22 years working at ENN. 

Astrid: Hello and welcome to ENN Dialogues, the podcast where we explore matters, nutrition, share insights and connect with the experts and professionals in the field. I'm your host, Astrid Klomp and this is a Field Exchange 75 Special Edition podcast as we bid farewell to one of ENN'S outgoing technical directors, Marie McGrath. Marie is here to share some insights on her own inspiring ENN story and some awesome advice about our flagship publication Field Exchange. Welcome to the show, Marie.

Marie: Thank you very much for having me, Astrid.

Astrid: So Marie, it's been an incredible 22 years at ENN. Tell us a little bit about your journey. Where did it all begin? 

Marie: Wow. Thank you, Astrid. Well, it began about it 22 years ago. And the backdrop to it is that I was doing some research a few years. Before that I wrote an article for Field Exchange about the trials and tribulations of research during the Kosovo crisis, and Jeremy Shoham, who was the editor of Field Exchange at the time, gave me a call and said, you know, we didn't have to edit the article you wrote. Do you fancy a bit of sub editing and I said, yeah, I do. And that was my foot in the door with ENN and suddenly I had two feet in the door and as you can see, I never left. So it was right back then starting sub editing on Field Exchange is what got me involved and embroiled in ENN. 

Astrid: That's great. So clearly, field exchange has been a major part of this journey at ENN. So can you tell us a bit what particularly did you like about your sub editing role? And I think you later became editor as well, correct? 

Marie: That's right. I've always loved hearing and sharing and learning about people's stories and this was the job that enabled me to do just that. I'd had maybe 5-6 years of experience working in emergency programming around the world and often felt isolated and not sure what to do. These were the days before there was mobile phones and indeed e-mail had hardly been invented, so I really appreciated the challenges and the conundrums programmers faced. And here was an opportunity to help exchange and learn and enable a facilitate exchange between those very same people who were still out there doing this work. So when it comes to sub editing, I loved the craft of story writing and I loved listening and learning to what people were doing and saying. It was really about improving how an article is written and supporting the writer through the process. Then as I got more exposure, and in particular through the fantastic support and mentorship from the Field Exchange editor, Jeremy Shoham, who was actually one of the founders of ENN and Fiona O'Reilly, who also co-founded it way back around 95/96. It was through his support and tutorage that I was able to step up into an editor role and indeed by learning from others that builds my own capacity, so it really was a learning by doing and ENN gave me the opportunity to then step up into that editorial role, and so I was co-editor for many years with Jeremy Shoham.

Astrid: Great. And is there a Field Exchange issue or article that stands out for you from a writing perspective and/or an editorial perspective?

Marie: That's a tricky question because I have to say from the first articles that I read and maybe some of the last ones that I co-edited, I never got tired of reading them and I always had these occasional ‘ooh’ moments, and when you got some of the nuggets and the details and there's no one article I think that particularly characterised that moment. These surprises are hidden in the most surprising places and what I was really encouraged by and in awe of is people's ability to describe their challenges and be frank about them. And I think the process at ENN and within the Field Exchange team is to really to encourage transparency about when things go wrong, as well as when things go right. And that's a difficult place to navigate and fair dues to all of those writing who do put pen to paper to say when things didn't quite go as well as expected. That is when you truly learn. I think in terms of an edition, I think one of the ones that stands out for me was a special edition that we did about government experiences of scaling up Community-based Management of Acute Malnutrition or CMAM, which was really on the back of a large conference that we co-hosted with the Ministry of Health in Ethiopia and that was back in 2011. This documented the experiences that governments had from their perspective. And it was just such a valuable, live and then documented experience through the pages of Field Exchange. It was also a wonderful experience of working across the ENN team. It was just such a wonderful, constructive and very influential piece of work. It was like Field Exchange live, but having the government perspective was particularly special and for me that is a standout edition. It would have been many, many little standout moments over those, I don't know, probably 18 odd years that I was a Field Exchange editor.

Astrid: Thank you very much Marie. I think it's really interesting that you mentioned, if I can go back to your point about challenges, because I think being a nutrition practitioner myself, that something is a bit scary to put those in writing so that it’s something that everybody can read. How did you encourage author to write about their challenges and how can that be done in a way that is really in a helpful way. I think that's why we are here, that's what Field Exchange is about, right? Trying to learn from each other. Do you have any tips on both assets of Field Exchange or authors as well?

Marie: Yes, it is a tricky one. I'm not saying we were all successful in that and that is not to do a disservice from the people who are writing. We work in a sector where we have to account to donors and people have to be shown to be doing well and maximising on what they do with their budgets, with their programmes, etcetera, and it can be very difficult to say where you are falling short. I think what has really helped is pitching it as helping each other, you're helping your colleague and you're helping your phone a friend and that really encourages transparency. And if you see others doing it well, then you will too. There's also a certain safety in numbers, I guess, if you have an edition that is describing some of the challenges. We also really focus on not just what are the challenges, but how did you overcome them or how could you overcome them and how could we do better next time? And how have we lived and learned by that process? So really focusing on those positives and how do you get through those trials and tribulations. I think if we think of whatever work we are in, we get up on a Monday morning and we ask what problem I am facing today to sort out, there are all these things popping in. So, it is no surprise. Maybe what the surprise is, is sometimes saying it, but I think we've been very, very lucky and I think it reflects a strong commitment to the collective learning and action, which is what started Field Exchange so many years ago. Indeed, at a meeting in Addis post-Rwanda crisis to try and improve institutional learning and memory and exchange. So, it came from a need and a need to network and learn and that hasn't gone away. And indeed, it's all you could say the more stronger now to work collectively together so that collective effort and people feeling that individually they can make a difference and rest assured you do. 

Because my first exposure to Field Exchange was as a nutritionist working in South Sudan setting up a supplementary feeding programme and being really stressed about what criteria we should adapt to use. I read an article in Field Exchange that had come in on the plane with a little bit of bread and I read about another agency that had a similar programme on the rationale for what they did, and I was like, oh, thank goodness! Here we go! We're going to do that. And so probably that's the article that really stands out amongst all, I don't know, the hundreds of thousands of articles that I've read. It’s the one that I read that was exposed to before I joined ENN, and it’s because it helped me do my job better. And so that really has been the overriding principle of how I've approached Field Exchange since - with a strong sense of empathy for those who are trying to do the best they can in the most difficult of circumstances and we're there as their allies to encourage and support them.

Astrid: Yes and I think that's a really valuable lesson and reminder to also to bring to our authors that it's really about that sharing with one another. But you've also written a few articles, Marie, before you joined ENN but also since - many articles! Is there one of any of those that you particularly enjoyed or that you really saw some great reactions?

Marie: Yes, I think before I joined ENN, when I wrote an article I wrote about the realities of research and my research supervisor at the time, I’ll name no names. He said, ohh, I think you're a bit too honest about the realities of research which I had to laugh at and since then I became very involved in the Infant Feeding in Emergencies work and then subsequently in the Management of Small and Nutritionally At Risk Infants under six months. So I guess some of those articles are ones that stand out for me because I can see and witness the influence of learning and synthesis, and synthesised learning can happen. They're the ones that, I guess, stand out for me, but I think it's the ones that other people write that weigh more heavily in my head and impact me than the ones that I write.

Astrid: That's great. Probably encouraging for those that have written as well listening to this. So we at Field Exchange also sometimes encountered challenges doing this work. Is there a time where it was really difficult to get an issue across or some challenges and how did you overcome those struggles?

Marie: We have sort of, I guess, minor glitches when you're just trying to finalise an edition. Field Exchange is the gift that keeps on giving and there's always new articles coming in or extended deadlines, and so trying to get closure on addition and the slippage on deadlines is always a challenge. We've had, in the past, challenges when we've done perhaps a special edition which has tested and challenged the status quo, and we did one about the continuity of care for malnutrition and particularly looked at the UN roles and responsibilities from the perspective of those implementing and supporting implementation and services on the ground. And we tend not to sit in our comfort zone at ENN, but we challenge ourselves and challenge others. And there were difficulties with that in terms of perhaps challenging and that could be seen as undermining the system. But we were able to broker a negotiation way through it because I think even those that may, on one hand, have considered us being highly critical, they could say that we are coming from a very good place. We were all in it together. We were a constructive friend and what we did is we shared in advance what our editorials were going to be, we had webinars together to, sort of, help understand what we're saying and help understand from their perspectives. And so we aren't an evaluator: we're not there to find problems for the sake of problems, but we're there to expose the issues that we think truly need addressing. And so we have been able to do that but I think it very much reflects the negotiation and the brokerage and trust and the respect that we have for each other across the sector even if we may not be agreeing, we can actually agree to differ.

Astrid: Before joining ENN, I think that's something I've really appreciated. That ENN and Field Exchange and that role and in in really voicing the challenge - the real true challenges - that we see when we work in implementation. Any comments to past authors or prospective authors on what really makes a great Field Exchange article?

Marie: I guess the message would be do not underestimate the value of what you do and learn. I've spoken to so many people over the years, often over coffee, or grabbing a bit of lunch or an ad hoc at the end of a webinar or a call, and they really underestimate the value of what they've learned and what they've done. So do not be afraid to put pen to paper. I would also say, what are the things that you would tell a friend or a colleague over a drink? The take home messages and then just build up from there. It can be scary to write a story as it were, or to write an article, and sometimes people are used to writing for peer reviewed journals where it's very formulaic and certain parameters have to be met and you have to produce a finished article. With Field Exchange, the editorial team provides incredible support in crafting an article and to really help capture your learning. I would say don't be shy in coming forward.

Astrid: You mentioned that it's not like writing a peer reviewed article. Are there any other differences? Has that also maybe changed over time? The way that we work in Field Exchange or not so much at all? 

Marie: Apart from what I’ve said about the peer review, perfect article criteria that need to be met, Field Exchange allows you to get into the nitty gritty of implementation and how. There's increasing attention, interestingly, from BMJ from The Lancet Global Health and others, for implementation research and implementation science, which is wonderful to see, but we've been doing that for the last. 25 years, I'd say. So we've got a lot that we could bring to that table. I think it's the implementation realities and indeed, Field Exchange over the many years that I have been co-editing was used as a vehicle to really get results out there early whilst they were going through the very long peer review publication, and we were able to manage that to protect the peer review process. But also, by providing the implementation details that we're never going to feature in a peer reviewed journal, so it complemented nicely. And researchers really like sharing through Field Exchange because it just went directly to influence those who are doing practice and indeed those who are planning future research. It got things out there quickly and it got things out there that were relevant and usable.

Astrid: Is there anything that at Field Exchange that we have stopped doing that we should be doing still and we're trying to really remain relevant to the people that are working in implementation. 

Marie: Yes. And over the years, we've toyed with the online versus the print and the size of it. When I have been travelling around still, my own experience and experience of others, there's so much stuff online and we're all looking at screens 24/7 and it is so refreshing to flick through something in print. Online access is still not accessible for everybody around the world and where it is, it's expensive often and sporadic. And I find I interact differently with content and print I flick through. I expose myself in different ways and I learn differently. So, maybe it reflects my grey hairs, but I still like print and I have to say I still buy a newspaper now and again so that I can see what else is there that I didn't expect. 

Astrid: So looking ahead over the next few years, what are some challenges and opportunities for Field Exchange? 

Marie: Well, I think the long standing challenges that really haven't gone away has been translation, and not just translation, but more the access to and availability of learning in contexts in regions that don't have English as their first language. We often focus on, say, the translation of content but it's much more than that! There are whole communities of practise who are operating and working in a different context, a different culture and language is part of that. You can be speaking the same words even in the same language, but you're speaking a different language. Where I come from, Ireland, where we speak English but what we say and how we says is completely different and our interpretations are sometimes not translatable even to my family who know me. If you then throw in the huge diversity around the world, I feel that we are missing so much richness. There is a limit to what we can do, so I think it's not saying we should be trying to accommodate and do all of that. We'd be fooling ourselves, but it would be lovely if we could have more direct engagement and capture and exchange and learning within these communities, whether it's francophone or whether it's Arabic speaking nations, whether it's Spanish and over the years, Field Exchange has really made really strong headways on that front and I've been really heartened by it, but that is one of the ongoing challenges that I see. It also is such opportunity as well.

Astrid: I think that's definitely something that we are really actively looking at. So for us working at Field Exchange currently, do you have any advice for us?

Marie: I would say that sometimes we need to improve and we're always wanting to improve, but there's also the element of if it's not broke, don't fix it. And just because something isn't new, it doesn't mean it's not relevant, and I think the need to network and support each other and learn from each other and document that learning. The need has never been stronger, and particularly in the context of where resources are more limited. We need to be most effective and efficient with what we have. I think we need to much more closely attend to local, national learning. We have been really trying to do that and certainly we have great examples of doing that, but that really needs real advocacy and we need to act as an ally and support that leadership at country level and to really support the documentation and the learning exchange. I think I would remain very heartened. I would say for the Field Exchange team to be really reassured of your value in this complex, messy world, and it is a huge resource and service, and I would put your head down, keep going and you will learn so much by the doing of it.

Astrid: Anything else to add? Because otherwise I think we want to thank you so much, Marie. Do you have some final thoughts?

Marie: So one final word is that I love the pictures of the authors because it's people telling these stories and I've met people at new things or people have met each other and you recognise people by their faces and it shows the real people behind all these stories. So I do love the pictures and I love the illustrations that that come in. 

I would just like to say hats off to Orna O'Reilly who has designed and crafted Field Exchange over the years with so much patience and with all our tweaks and to John, her husband, who used to do the pandemonium cartoon. So there's a lovely collection of committed people and individuals across the Field Exchange team. And finally, a word to Jeremy Shoreham and Fiona Riley, who had the creativity and the inside and the determinism to get Field Exchange going because what they built and established has kept going through trials and tribulations. A huge thanks in particular, to Jeremy Shoham for his support and mentorship to me in my early days and throughout, from whom I learned so much. Field Exchange really gave me a wonderful, wonderful experience upon which all my other areas of work developed.

Astrid: Great. Well, thank you so much Marie, for all that you've done for Field Exchange and ENN and from all of us, we want to wish you all the best on your journey ahead. This is also a thank you and a goodbye from us at Field Exchange. So that brings us to the end of the Special Edition podcast. It's been a pleasure to be speaking to you, Marie, and all the best in your future endeavours. I hope you've enjoyed our conversation and thank you for listening. Until next time, goodbye.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to ENN dialogues. For more nutrition stories around the world, please go to www.enonline.net/fex